I am wanting to give my new Puppy the best diet that i can, i have been advised to feed him on, 1 raw chicken wing, a small amount of tripe and 1 raw egg a day.
Please could you tell me if this is ok or offer me alterantive foods for him.
Thanks,
Caren.

Hi, Caren (again!)
No, I think that you have been given duff advice! This diet is totally lacking in calcium and vitamin D - both essential to a growing puppy. There is a bunch of cranks who 'recommend' a 'natural' diet - raw meaty bones and so on. DON'T LISTEN TO THEM!
A growing pup needs large amounts of calcium and protein - just consider how long it takes a newborn human baby to grow from about 7 lbs to adult size(possibly 15 years) and then think about your puppy who grows from a few ounces to his adult wight in 9 months!
The commercial dog food manufacturers have done a great deal of research into dietary needs of dogs, which the 'natural' food protagonists choose to ignore. My advice is to get a commecial puppy food made by one of the companies - Pedigree Masterfoods, Hills, Iams, Eukanuba, for example, and follow the instructions. Do not be tempted to augment it with chisken wings, eggs or anything else. Thses foods are balanced, and if you add extra protein carbohydrates or vitamins you will upset the balance.
Do not be inluenced by these self-styled experts. Some breeders are amongst them!
Walter

Ok, thanks again for your advice,
Caren.

I'd like to add to Walter's excellent advice:
I'm also a vet and have recently treated a 6month old puppy who has been fed on a very similar diet - raw chicken, mince, egg and milk - on the advice of the breeder. This puppy is now very ill. It has developed a serious problem with its bones and joints caused by this inadequate diet, unfortunately we fear that some of the damage may be permanent. It also has severe diarrhoea and a sample of his feaces showed that he is shedding salmonella and this has probably been due to the raw chicken.
Salmonella often does not cause illness in the dog itself, but does pose a serious health risk to the human members of the family, especially the very young and elderly (in this case the owner has a three year old child).
Proponents of the "raw meaty bones" diet seemed to have missed a very important point: natural is not always best! The life-expectancy of wild dogs was nowhere near as long as the life-expectancy of dogs nowadays. We want and expect our pets to reach a ripe old age and this has only been possible due to years of research and advances in veterinary medicine, including the work of pet food manufacturers. I only feed my dogs a high quality commercial diet and if you ask other vets, I bet the vast majority of them will say the same thing!
Caren - please don't be scared by the above story - you've done the sensible thing and asked for advice early. A change to a good quality diet now will set your puppy on the right track. Be prepared for him to turn his nose up to start with though! It's a bit like feeding a child on hamburgers and mars bars and then expecting them to eat only salad! persevere and have patience - it will be well worth it.
I heard this saying once and its worth repeating here:
A breeder's job is to get a puppy out of their house and into yours, the vet's job is to keep that puppy in your house for as many years as possible. YOUR job is to decide which of their advice you're going to take.

I hate to disagree with a veterinary colleague, but a diet based on raw meaty bones is far better for a dog than commercially prepared diets. My dogs have raw chicken wings, raw mince, offal , scraps of our own food, pulped vegetables, and more.

They have good teeth, healthy skin and coat condition, no bad breath, and are full of vitality.

You certainly need more in the diet than has been advised, but it's a good starting point. Incidentally, the Calcium that Walter Beswick mentions is provided by the raw bones - but the bones must be raw. There are good books and websites on feeding a natural diet.

There are many vets now understanding the benefits of natural diets for pets - sadly Walter Beswick isn't yet one of us. We are not cranks, but professional expetrienced vets who are not bound to the mantra of 'only the big pet food companies know how to feed dogs'

Richard Allport

Richard Allport BVetMed, VetMFHom, MRCVS

I would like to thank Jane for the advice she has given.
Being that i have 2 vets against this Natural Diet and 1 that is for it, i would like you to know that i'm going to go with the majority.
Also to let Jane know that the Puppy is still with his mother at the moment so i hadn't actually started him on the diet.
At the moment he is eating Bakers Complete, so i think i will keep him on this.
The only query that i still have is that i have been told by many people that Staffies suffer with Dandruff and that feeding them the egg helps with this problem??
Thanks to everyone for there advice,
Caren.

Hi again Caren,
"Dandruff" on dogs is basically the accumulation of dead skin cells which are shed perfectly normally in all dogs. These skin cells are particularly visible in staffies due to their short, glossy coat.
An abnormal shedding of these cells can occur in a variety of conditions classified under the heading "seborrhoea". In these cases treatment is required and one supplement that can help (alongside others) is gamma linoleic acid (GLA) one of the essential fatty acids. This can be provided either in specially prepared forms but is also found in high quantities in starflower oil.
However, normal "dandruff" should not require any special treatment. Grooming your puppy thoroughly everyday will help to lift the dead skin cells off his coat and is a good lesson in obedience for all puppies! Rubber grooming mitts or brushes are gentle for puppies (they usually enjoy the "massaging" effect) and are particularly effective at lifting debris out of the coat.
When you take your pup for his first vaccination, point out any areas of dandruff you're concerned about and ask him/her to confirm if it's a problem or not. Don't be afraid to ask lots of questions - make a list first if you think you may forget and take a pen and paper to jot down important points. Your vet won't mind this at all and in fact will be pleased to see a dedicated owner. Enjoy a long and happy life with your pup!

I have to disagree with Jane - it's the processed manufactured diet that is more like the 'junk food' hamburger and Mars bar diet, not the fresh food diet!

Of course raw chicken/mince/eggs/milk on it's own is not a balanced diet - raw bones are a critical part of a natural diet, for the Calcium - and the equivalent of the intestines and other viscera, and the scavenged foods are also required. But it's not rocket science, it's common sense!

Certainly raw food must be stored and prepared carefully, and reputable sources of raw meat are vital - but I have fed my dogs raw meat (and of course bones) for years without any adverse effects in them ( or in my own family, I'm glad to report!)

Wild dogs, if they lived a shorter life than domestic dogs, didn't do so because their natural diet was at fault, but because of injury or disease.
Modern dogs may sometimes live a lot longer, but often with chronic disease, to some extent (in my view) brought on by commercial diets. Their increased longevity, if it really occurs, is despite processed diets, not because of them. Often they are not really living longer, they are just taking longer to die.

One more point - if breeders who advocate raw food diets are so wrong, how come their bitches are healthy enough to have bouncing little puppies for people to buy? There are, without doubt, some breeders whose advice I wouldn't take, but then there are some breeders who are caring and extremely knowledgable about rearing puppies.

Sorry, Richard, but this is an issue on which the majority of veterinary surgeons and dieticians - and many breeders - would disgree with you.
'Processed' dog food is NOT 'junk food'. Cooked meat, a boiled egg, baked bread, are all examples of 'processed food' The word 'processed' in this context has been debased and the definition changed in a similar way to the word 'organic'
Walter

As history has shown, the majority is often wrong! It is partly semantics, I agree, but in my view 'processed' is very different from 'freshly cooked'. My dogs do have some freshly cooked food along with their mainly raw food diet.

Have you been watching Jamie Oliver's school food programmes? Feeding dogs on the average tinned/dried dogfoods is equivalent to feeding children on Turkey Twizzlers. Let's follow Jamie's groundbreaking move for healthy diets for children, and feed our dogs healthily too. Raw, freshly cooked, fine. Most tins and packets - Turkey Twizzlers!

Richard Allport BVetMed, VetMFHom, MRCVS

Richard,
In your last thread you said "Most tinned and Packet foods", what exactly did you mean by this comment?
Do you think that some dried foods are better than others??
If so why?
Caren.

Hi, Richard,
Come on, you cannot really equate commercially prepared petfood with 'turkey twizzlers'! Do you NEVER eat anything out of a tin because it is not 'fresh'?
I recall that unopened tins of food found in Captain Scott's cabin were found to be wholesome and edible, despite being almost 100 years old!
The majority are NOT always wrong, as you propose.
Walter

I have to say Richard you put a good case forward.I would ask Jane how much teaching as a vet student she got on nutrition taking aside any input from Hill's etc. I have recently received from someone very concerned about this- figures she has been given under the Freedom of Information Act .She is deeply concerned that vets learn very little on nutrition !!

Hi, Michael,
All veterinary students receive scientifically based information on dietetics during their Animal Husbandry course. On top of that, in their Clinical Medicine & Surgery the various deficiency diseases which result from an inadequate diet are considered. Jane's contribution above describing a deficiency case she encountered does not need a PhD in Dietetics to recognise.
The worst deficiency case which I ever saw was in a six month-old tiger cub, fed only on raw meat - surely a 'natural' diet for a tiger!- from the age of 6 weeks, whose legs collapsed beneath it. X-ray showed that the bones had folded like drinking straws because of calcium and vitamin D deficiency.
The late Professor James Campbell when wishing to study hip dysplasia in German Shepherd dogs almost 50 years ago, before commerically produced ( or 'processed' ) dog foods were available, could not find 'normal' 12 week old GSD pups! All showed deficiencies in bone formation and needed calcium supplementation.
Walter

Hiya . I have been following this thread when I can as I find it fascinating. When we got our Irish Wolfhound at 4 months old, we were given a weaning diet of high calcium (milk, evaporated milk, rice pudding, tripe,etc) and puppy giant breed Eukanuba. However our pup by 9 months had developed O.C.D of the shoulder. Much self hating occured. Was it too much exercise? (we really don't think so) or was there too much milk in his diet that caused calcification...and so began our crusade for knowledge. Eukanuba really put up a fantastic case and the documentation was sent to a friend who is an independant nutritionist. We only brought our dog off Eukanuba as he hates the adult stuff!!!!
So...can you give too much calcium?
Don't worry about major replys as I am now doing this for self education and for fun in my spare time. We have had major dealings with horse nutrition but not dog. Our dog is deserving the absolute best in everything hence our obsessive stalking of this site.

Hi, Ken,
The causes of OCD are 'multifactorial'. I think it unlikely that too much calcium in the diet would be one of the factors.
If my memory of biochemistry and intestinal physiology serves me correctly, there is a very clever mechanism which prevents more calcium than is required being absorbed into the body. XS vitamins A & D, on the otherhand, can be positively harmful.
However, if you see earlier comments, a commercial diet - such as puppy giant breed Eukanuba is designed to provide ALL the nutrtional requirements. Adding other ingredients on a DIY basis - in your case," milk, evaporated milk, rice pudding, tripe etc " could upset the balance of nutrients.
Walter

Thanks Walter...Odd as we could see a possible corrolation but the breeder insisted the amount of Eukanuba was 'in proportion' to the amount of wet stuffs. When we took pup to have his operation at the animal hospital in Northampton (he was referred to a specialist) we probed the 2 Vet's there who were fabulous and said as you have O.C.D is multifactorial. Diet, predisposition of the breed (genetics was ruled out but that confuses me as isn't a breed predisposition the same as genetic tendancies?) and exercise are the biggest contributers. However our 'normal' Vets (who are very good and we have a lot of faith in) said it was almost definately down to the milk.
Maybe we gave the impresion that he had gallons which was certainly not the case.
As a note to the other Vets here who have excellent cases for pro 'natural verus commercial' It will be interesting to see what our Wolfie eventually dies of and if a contributary factor is diet. He is on and has pretty much always been on his bulk food of a commercial diet...He is 3 years old this month and is in very hard condition and more active than 99% of his peers. So we shall wait to see what age he reaches. Thanks for the reply I shall continue to study all the responses.

Hi, Ken,
Thanks for that. I agree, I cannot see much of a difference between 'breed disposition' and ' genetic tendencies' !
Giant breeds, as you probably know, are not long lived, most dying of cardiomyopathy at about 8 years old.
I hope that yours is the exception that proves the rule!
Walter

Well as much as we want him to live forever...I would rather he burnt bright and had one hell of a life in the fast lane than was condemned to barely being able to get up and struggle out to the toilet. I hope that day never comes as quality of life is paramount. He is such a misery if it is too hot to do at least 4 hours hard work so we get up in the Summer at 4 am go to bed around 11pm to avoid the days heat. But on a more cheery note...I am convinced he will kill both my wife and I through muscle damage, fatigue and wear and tear (us that is) long before its his time to go!

One question Walter if all this tin bulked up food is so good for our animals .Why is it so expensive and unfit for human consumption -what rubbish is really in it?

Hi Everyone,
I would just like to comment that it's great to see all these threads, and all because i asked a question, lol.
I would also like to add that i brought my new puppy (Bailey) home this evening and that he is adorable.
Very interesting to read everyones views on this subject,
Caren.

Greetings Walter

Oh, come on now, I never said the majority was ALWAYS wrong, just often wrong.

Yes, I do equate Turkey Twizzlers with most commercial pet foods, they are both made up of things like 'mechanically retrieved meat', 'meat by products' and all the other debris derived from real food. There are some perfectly reasonable commercial foods such as James Wellbeloved and Burns (to answer your query in another part of the thread, Caren) made from good quality food with few preservatives, colourings and flavourings.

If these are fed alongside some real fresh meat and bones, that's fine. Dogs should have a variety of foods. But not tinned/dried food as their sole diet.

Yes, I occasionally use tinned food, but if I do, I look closely at the ingredients. In the past week I have opened one tin - a can of organic chopped tomatoes, to make a pasta sauce.

Tell me honestly, would you be prepared to eat NOTHING but tinned and dried food for the whole of your life? If not, why should your dog be expected to! But it's not just a question of taste and aesthetics, it is a question of health. Pet owners who feed their dogs on fresh food do so because it keeps their pets happier and healthier.

I used to propound the party line that Hills/Eukanuba/ Pedigree was fine. But I realised that this just isn't true! Give real food for really healthy dogs.

Richard

Richard Allport BVetMed, VetMFHom, MRCVS

Hi, Michael,
You have it wrong - almost all the ingredients which go into commercially prepared food ARE fit for human consumption - absolutely no meat which has been condemned in an abbatoir is used by the reputable manufacturers in the UK. (I have no personal knowledge of overseas producers, but I suspect the same rule applies).
I am sure that if you asked the major UK producer if you might have a tour of their factory to see for yourself - as I have done - they would welcome you.
I repeat that I have absolutely no connection with any commercial pet food manufacturer, nor have I ever had. I am only concerned with what I truly believe is the optimum type of nutrition for the household pet.
Walter

Hi.i get my new dog,and my first. 20.4.05. the person i have got my dog from has a very long history with breeding staffordshire bull terriers. and has offered me good advice. but i would be greatfull for your advice on the best way to feed my dog(bitch) till she is ready to eat a more robust adult dog food. with thanks

Hi Steve,
I was going to feed my Puppy (Bailey) a raw diet, until gaining advice from Walter suggesting that this isn't a good idea.
Then i was going to feed him Iams Puppy complete meal.
Since then i have decided to feed him "Natural choice Puppy" (Lamb and Rice): made by the company "Nutro".
Bailey loves this dried food and is thriving on it.
I'm not an expert, but as a first time puppy owner, i would suggest using this food.
Hope this helps.
Caren.

OK Caren, but Ihope that there is a lot more in than just lamb and rice!
W

I have done all the research on it and it seems to have everything that they require.
Thanks Walter,
Caren.

If you are feeding a dry food, make sure that there is ALWAYS plent of fresh clean drinking water available.
Walter

He always has a bowl full of water down, i have to encourage him though as he doesn't seem too interested in it, lol.
Thanks for the advice,
Caren.

We have been given a 5mth female staffordshire bull terrier 4 days ago
her name is Sasha, she loves playing, the problem is she doesn't like
dog tinned food, we bought for her chicken, rabbit and lamb, she just
licked at the jelly, but does not eat the actual meat.

We then gave her some cooked chicken pieces with rice, she ate the
chicken and left the rice. I would like her to eat dog food, how do I
go about it.

She loves milk, (but which milk is good for her,)

Please advise me what I need to give her, (I am a new owner)

Thank you for your help